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S.A. Natsu
12-22-2016, 05:24 PM
So, I'm gonna put this in spoilers but I've been creating a little timeline theory for what occurs postgame in Sun and Moon version so, do check it out. As many of you know, Looker lost his memory in OR/AS, Zinnia has experience with alternate dimensions, and Anabel was in a wormhole for a very long time. So, I think they all are connected and possibly chronologically connected due to hints in the game. I'll start by telling you that, according to Bulbapedia, trainers Red and Blue and Wally are 11 in Gen 1, and 31 in Sun and Moon, so we're working by that logic.

Now, I think it all begins with ORAS, which is technically the first game, chronologically, alongside Red/Blue and the remakes. Zinnia, presumably based on ingame text, lost her daughter in the non mega timeline and instead has Whismur, who is named after her daughter Astar, and they live in the mega timeline. Somehow Zinnia knows her daughter is in the non mega time line so Zinnia must have some experience, most likely forced experience, traveling through other dimensions at LEAST one time. In the end of OR/AS she leaves Hoenn to go somewhere unstated.

Looker, in OR/AS, has suffered a memory loss for an unstated reason. I am sure he went through a wormhole and that is why, and was in there long enough to lose his memory, but not long enough to have the aura on him that lures Ultra Beasts to him. 10 years later, during what I believe must be around X and Y timeframe, after the post game of XY, Looker has to go due to his job requiring him to travel. I believe this was to begin the Ultra Beast hunts. In Sun and Moon, Looker states that 10 years ago, he was working with Nanu to hunt Ultra Beasts, which would match up with XY. Perhaps Looker wasn't originally a detective and only became one AFTER he was found washed up on shore in OR/AS, the first chronological games. Perhaps he even became a detective in order to "Look" for his original identity. To find out who he is.

In Sun and Moon, Looker and Nanu tell you a person was found washed up on shore with no memory 10 years ago. I believe that person was Zinnia, and Looker was called to investigate her mysterious circumstances. After leaving Hoenn in ORAS, Zinnia had been taken into the Ultra Wormhole for possible years, enough time to lose her memory and carry the aura around her body that lures Ultra Beasts to her, just like what happened to Anabel. When Zinnia was healthy enough and able to, which may have taken months, she was allowed on the missions with Looker to find the Ultra Beasts, and subsequently killed by Guzzlord. Ten years later, we have Sun and Moon version with Looker haunted by his past and still trying to find himself.

Thanks to the 20 year gap between ORAS and the Gen 1 games all the way to Sun and Moon, and Looker telling us about what happened 10 years ago from Sun and Moon, we have a huge enough gap to theorize and connect some possibilities.

I know this was a little long, but I did wanna put it down somewhere. Am I wrong somewhere? Too confusing?

S.A. Natsu
12-23-2016, 05:54 AM
Also can this be moved to the main Gen 7 forum and not the trade/battle sub section... I didn't realize what I did

UltraSound
12-23-2016, 02:01 PM
Moved!
I have a few questions, I don't remember all the lore or timeline perfectly so I'm sorry if my questions are kind of dumb or if you explained them and I just didn't catch them (though I did read through what you said multiple times but my reading comprehension sucks atm and I'm tired but also interested in your theory so here we go)


1. I'm sure the worm holes are very unstable with what they do and we don't know much about them, but in S/M when us, the players go through it, we become a Faller but don't lose our memory - why would the opposite happen to Looker? Idk seems kind of convenient to me if the exact opposite just happens to happen for him.
2. You said that Looker may have become a detective in OR/AS after he washed up on the shore, but his dialogue in OR/AS after he's in the cottage claims that he was on a important mission of some sort but can't remember what it was. Question is, what was that mission prior to showing up on the shore in OR/AS? If OR/AS is the first on the timeline, what and who was Looker prior to becoming what he became assuming your theory is correct?
3. How did you come to the conclusion that Zinnia died in the hands of Guzzlord? I was pretty convinced that the person who washed up on the shore 10 year ago that Nanu and Looker are talking about is Anabel, though obviously that could've just been a red herring or something. Am I missing something?

S.A. Natsu
12-23-2016, 09:07 PM
Moved!
I have a few questions, I don't remember all the lore or timeline perfectly so I'm sorry if my questions are kind of dumb or if you explained them and I just didn't catch them (though I did read through what you said multiple times but my reading comprehension sucks atm and I'm tired but also interested in your theory so here we go)


1. I'm sure the worm holes are very unstable with what they do and we don't know much about them, but in S/M when us, the players go through it, we become a Faller but don't lose our memory - why would the opposite happen to Looker? Idk seems kind of convenient to me if the exact opposite just happens to happen for him.
2. You said that Looker may have become a detective in OR/AS after he washed up on the shore, but his dialogue in OR/AS after he's in the cottage claims that he was on a important mission of some sort but can't remember what it was. Question is, what was that mission prior to showing up on the shore in OR/AS? If OR/AS is the first on the timeline, what and who was Looker prior to becoming what he became assuming your theory is correct?
3. How did you come to the conclusion that Zinnia died in the hands of Guzzlord? I was pretty convinced that the person who washed up on the shore 10 year ago that Nanu and Looker are talking about is Anabel, though obviously that could've just been a red herring or something. Am I missing something?


Thanks for moving!

1. The wormhole thing seems answerable by the fact that Anabel was in the wormhole for a very very long time, as said in game. So I believe if you are there for an extended period, it affects your memory and leaves you with an aura that attracts ultra beasts to you. The main character, Lillie, Guzma, and Lusamine weren't there very long. And even looker was presumably there long enough to lose some memory, but not enough to have the ultra beast aura around him.
2. For Looker I have absolutely no idea what he was before becoming a detective, or if he was one already, I can't say what his mission was, but I definitely feel Audino somehow is involved as he is holding the Audinite.
3. Zinnia is my prime suspect because she has been through other dimensions at least once. In ORAS she is trying to protect the other world from the meteor that the scientists in ORAS want to send to the non mega world because her friend or sibling, Aster, is still there. So It likely seems Zinnia at least once was separated from Aster and they now live in different universes, though that doesn't mean it was caused by an Ultra Wormhole. Could be the "normal" wormholes like what Hoopa uses with his rings. But because she has that universe jumping experience and is the only other person who has done it, she felt like a possible candidate. No other reason.
It seems a lot of people think Annabel was who appeared in that mission 10 years ago but it's impossible as that Faller died, and looker says he doesn't want the same thing to happen to Anabel so they are definitely two different people.

Yoda
01-12-2017, 03:34 AM
Interesting I was thinking something similar but not about zinna

Zethanos
01-12-2017, 06:19 AM
Well looker gets his name from his code. Remember nanu called him 100kr? Lookr? Looker? Eh? Eh? So I don't exactly think that because he's looking for his memories...at least that's my two cents on the matter.

S.A. Natsu
01-12-2017, 07:28 AM
Interesting I was thinking something similar but not about zinna

About who then?

- - - Updated - - -


Well looker gets his name from his code. Remember nanu called him 100kr? Lookr? Looker? Eh? Eh? So I don't exactly think that because he's looking for his memories...at least that's my two cents on the matter.

Yeah but that doesn't prove anything. His code name being that is one thing but that doesn't mean gamefreak isn't also throwing hints that his name has an even deeper meaning. He lost his memory in ORAS, chronigically the first games, and around two Years before Looker first was introduced. Names of characters historically has a deeper meaning than the obvious so just because his codename is 100kr doesn't mean my theory is incorrect about him seeking his identity especially since we know for a fact he not only lost his memory in Hoenn but is also trying to recover it. I'm not saying my theory is completely accurate but it so far is not disproven.

Zethanos
01-12-2017, 04:24 PM
I thought he lost his memory because he was in a shipwreck or something though...because HE washed up on the beach at the battle front, didn't he? You mentioned how you thought that was zinnia, but looker was the one who washed up on the beach...And all he had with him was the audinite. As for chronological order of the games, how can you tell what came first? I thought all the games were in chronological order as they were released, because in gen 2, prof elm said that many of the Pokémon you encounter had yet to be discovered, or had only recently been discovered; like togepi, Elekid, magby, and the starters, which were available in 3rd gen. Also, in second gen, team rocket had been disbanded by Red quite a few years prior, and then he left to train on mount silver. So in that sense at least, the order does go R\B\Y->G\S\C. How do you know that 3rd gen came before all that...? Or are you saying the chronology only stems between the 3rd gen remakes, x\y, and ORAS?

Now jump to looker specifically...you said he and zinnia may be fallers, but where are you getting that assumption from? You mentioned that it's possible looker passed through a wormhole at one point, but had no ultra aura on him, where zinnia was there long enough to lose her memory before being killed by guzzlord...but I thought in sun and moon even YOUR character was considered a faller, which is why all the ultra beasts came to you, but we weren't there all that long... I also saw your theory revolve around how they had knowledge of the ultra wormholes, like how there's a mega dimension and a non mega dimension...like when you mentioned aster. I thought zinnia's daughter just died, and she nicknamed her whismur after her because she reminded her of a child that needed to be cared for. Where are you pulling the idea that her daughter is alive in a separate dimension from...?

I'd like you to understand I'm really not shooting your theory down, nor am I trying to, I actually enjoy fan theories quite a bit. I'm only a bit confused on some parts, and I'd like your elaboration.

S.A. Natsu
01-12-2017, 08:29 PM
@ Zathanos don't get me wrong, I don't think you're trying to shoot it down, and if anything I would be happy for it to be shot down if there's something wrong in it. That's part of why I posted it. To see if anything in it was overlooked or already disproven, so I insist anyone do so if there is something false.

Looker lost his memory by means of something unconfirmed. There's no evidence of any shipwreck he was in. That was just a rumor/theory from online. We know from an NPC that something splashed into the water out of nowhere, and we can ASSUME that was Looker falling from a wormhole and landing in Hoenn. And that's all we factually know. We can make a very strong link to the wormhole because if you're in one for long enough, you lose your memory. Looker washed up on shore in Hoenn, but another person washed up approximately 10 years AFTER that. Looker says ten years before the S/M games he investigated someone who washed up on shore with no memory and had wormhole aura surrounding them which resulted in that person dying from the Ultra Beasts, so, this clearly isn't Looker as he is alive, lol.

The games have been proven numerous times to be in a specific order of Gen 1 and 3 occurring at the exact same time frame, meaning Kanto and Hoenn, Gen 2 and 4 happen at about the same time as well, being Johto and Sinnoh. Unova takes place several years or so after that. Kalos happened a few more years from there. And another ten years later is Alola. There's plenty of ingame text to confirm this, as well as one of the directors or writers for the franchise posting the timeline a few years ago. Remakes are a different universe altogether. FR/LG and R/B/Y both "exist" in the same time but not in the same space. ORAS and R/S/E happen, again, in the same time but not the same space. Read some of Zinnia's texts about alternate universes and how they work in the game, but basically she states that an alternate world is the same as the original one but where something occurs differently to change that universe. Like how R/S/E do not have the ultimate weapon of AZ, and therefore no Mega evolution, where as ORAS took a different path somehow and has megas and Fairies.

Your character is in the wormhole for a very, very short time. "Zinnia" and Looker were in there presumably for years. Anabel was definitely in there for a long time period. These three people all have no memory, and two of these people have the aura to draw the Ultra Beasts to them. Your character didn't really draw Ultra Beasts to them. Looker tells you where the beasts are hidden and you have to find them. It's not really the same thing. I can prove that by showing how Looker is concerned ONLY for Anabel. He doesn't want Anabel to die like the last Faller did by the Ultra Beasts, but with you it's more or a Pokemon battle. The UBs are drawn to the aura and attack the person who has the aura on them. Your character doesn't have any aura so your character would not be attacked but instead just have a battle. Big difference there.

I'm pulling the idea that Astar was still alive because there's no evidence Astar is dead in the games. Zinnia speaks as if Astar is alive in the other world and she wants to protect her from the meteor. Zinnia is willing to die and destroy the ORAS planet Earth in order to keep Astar, in the other universe, alive. So, I found it quite plausible that Astar must be alive still if Zinnia is so desperate to save that other universe. I will point out that in the MANGA, Astar is not Zinnia's daughter, though the actual relationship is unclear. And that Astar actually died. So it's POSSIBLE that Astar is dead in the games, though it's still not really proven either way.

Zethanos
01-12-2017, 10:10 PM
So by your logic are we to assume we've played through 2 stories that take place in two different dimensions when we compare R/S/E to ORAS? And the same should go for R/B/Y and FR/LG? Hence why mega evolution exists in one plane and not the other?

And in the case of the faller's lost memories, should we assume the nihilego are to blame for that?

Also, I only know this because I encountered her, but Annabel is actually present IN Emerald... She's a fight you can encounter in the battle frontier post game, although there's no mention of ultra beasts, and I don't think she specifically said she was with the police at that time...so if we're running on your logic of twisted dimensions that are linked to one another, would you say she disappeared from Emerald sometime after that through the wormhole and then later washed up in ORAS?

And running with your theory I had a thought I'd like to run past you. Cpuld you assume that for one thing to go missing in a dimension that something would need to take its place in the other? Or is there no connection other than the layout of the space? So in other words could we assume that because anabel got sucked into ultraspace and arrived in ORAS, could we also say that this is how aster came to vanish? She took anabels place in Emerald?

S.A. Natsu
01-12-2017, 11:47 PM
well it's not really "my" logic, this is what Zinnia claims herself, and is sort of confirmed by the fact that the scientists say they were going to send the meteor into, basically, another location/dimension. And, you may not have heard of this before, but there is a theory made by numerous ppl and youtubers that every game is it's own universe. Ruby is one with Magma, Sapphire is another with Aqua, and Emerald is yet another taking place with both groups, and some people even go as far as to say each individual CARTRIDGE is a separate, slightly differing universe, and it's a bit out there but those theories are kind of becoming more canon with each gen that comes out. But anyway, yes. Gen 3's Hoenn and Gen 6's Hoenn occur at the same time, in separate dimensions or universes or whatever.

I can't say which UB is responsible for the memory loss but it doesn't seem to work that way. It seems whatever it is that makes up the UB universe affects whatever enters it that is not a UB. So while UBs are fine existing there, humans and other beings not from that realm are negatively affected by it, lose their memories, and are coated in the Ultra Wormhole energy. The UBs that escaped from the Wormhole were essentially forced out of the Ultra Wormhole and are trying to find their way back, so when they find a person coated in the Wormhole energy, they think it's a way to get back home and attack that person. (That is not a theory that is literally stated in game)

Yes, Anabel is from the Battle Tower. She joined the police after she was found in THIS universe by Looker a few years ago. I can't say if she is from the Gen 3 Hoenn or not. I believe she is not. There would have to be two Anabel's in this new universe if that's the case, and nobody seems to know who she is. How could an entire undercover detective agency not know who Anabel is? Perhaps THIS Anabel isn't a Frontier Brain or whatever, but she is noted to be a powerful trainer. I think Anabel's role in this universe is not the same as the Gen 3 universe Anabel. Maybe she's not as popular or famous compared to Gen 3's Anabel. Tbh I'm not sure how that works out. Also I don't think it's said Anabel washed up in ORAS shores, just Looker did. I dunno where Anabel or the other Faller washed up at.

I'm not sure if one thing must leave in order for another to enter. It's possible, sure. But I can't say yes or no to it right now. If Anabel was taken out of Emerald and arrived in ORAS, that wouldn't affect Astar. Astar is from Gen 3's Hoenn, and so is Anabel. For what you're saying to make sense, Astar would have to be from ORAS and got swapped out by Anabel when Anabel was taken from Gen 3 and thrown into ORAS. The impression I got is that Zinnia was taken out of Gen 3's Hoenn, without Astar, and was trying to get back home to Astar, or at least protect Astar from the meteor being sent her way. What you seem to be saying would work out that Zinnia AND Astar were BOTH in Gen 3's Hoenn, taken from there and thrown into ORAS, and then Gen 3's Anabel was later sent into ORAS, which cause Astar to be sent BACK to Gen 3, without Zinnia, if that makes sense. Which, is an interesting if not super convoluted theory, but it could be possible, if that's what you were trying to say.

Zethanos
01-13-2017, 02:22 AM
Yes and no, I was under the impression that zinnia originated in ORAS, but aster disappeared. Or died. Whichever. So you've got the right idea, mine was just less of a mind twist. I was also operating under the assumption that anabel and aster just switched places. So aster went from ORAS to gen 3, and anabel came from gen 3 to ORAS.

S.A. Natsu
01-13-2017, 02:29 AM
Ah, I see. I mean, i guess there's nothing disproving what you said, either. I just figured Astar and Zinnia were from Gen 3. But, I guess them being from ORAS also can add up well enough, too. I even figured that the version of Astar in ORAS was Whismur. That Whismur could talk, called Zinnia mommy or something like that, so it seemed the ORAS version of Astar was a Whismur for whatever reason. It's a pretty wild setting ORAS created for the franchise's future. And I think S/M made things even more deeper. Gonna be a lot more twists in future games for sure lol.